Earlier today, I spent some time responding to a statement on the Elder Kindred Network forum.
Izaak wrote:
I have never actually seen a proper argument why they [Ashur Tablets] are broken.I felt obliged to offer an opinion on the subject, since it's one close to my heart.
On second thought, this topic may be closer to my ass than my heart
because I think wholesale library recursion is shit as a game mechanic.
There are 2 related aspects of library recursion that suggest brokenness.
First, V:tES is a card game. Intimately tied to that definition are common threads
- the random draw of objects from a predefined set and
- the imperfect knowledge that results from that action.
Second, V:tES is structured for each player using 3 basic resources for play.
- pool as the global resource,
- crypt-based minions to act in one's playspace and
- library cards to connect resources and manipulate the playspace.
It's time to look at how Ashur Tablets can violate both of those fundamental design properties.Ashur Tablets accesses a fourth resource, the Ash Heap. This resource is not available to every player by default. It seems reasonable to conclude that any player who gain additional (valuable) resources might have a strategic advantage.
This new resource either develops naturally or can be profitably grown with Liquidation. Beyond the cards used to access this resource, there is no opportunity cost in using it. Arguably, even that cost is offset by the 3 pool gain realized triggering a set of Ashur Tablets.
So far, we've got to free access to a resource not every player has.
But since we haven't proven that resource is valuable, it is best to continue.
If Ashur Tablets read "shuffle your Ash Heap. Put 12 random cards from your Ash Heap into your Library, and one into your hand" then it would be truly redundant and I wouldn't be writing this.
Selecting 13 tactically appropriate cards to return is a different matter. It significantly reconstructs a deck at point of use. We're using perfect knowledge of cards in the Ash Heap and reliable information about other player's minions and Ash Heap to rebuild a deck in-game.
Perfect knowledge (and solid inferences) in a game of imperfect knowledge....
that seems like a strategic advantage in the hands of any capable player.
This messes with the random nature of drawing from a predefined set.
It's not really predefined anymore.
We're stacking the odds in our favor as the library empties.
Recursion can smooth variability in past card draws. Hit too many of card "X" in the first 1/4 of the deck......recur as needed to re-balance the set of available objects again.
The minimizes the effect of unfavorable permutations drawn early in a game.
It creates a new set of a more favorable options for subsequent draws.
This seems like a double whammy on the whole randomness aspect of the game.
As an analogy, imagine playing poker and being able to draw your cards from a face-up muck. Immediately, you transform the probability of "hitting your draw" into a simple function of your ability to reach into the muck for what you need.
As the ease of recursion increases, the mechanic becomes increasingly broken.
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| Derek Zoolander in Jacobim Mugatu's "Derelicte" fashion line Zoolander, Parmount Films, 2001 |
As long as this card is on the tournament scene, we'll see players "pulling a Mugatu" by recycling trash, giving it a fancy name like "Girls Wear Derelicte" and trying to profit from the stupidity of others.
Tell them to "Relax" then string them players up by their skinny little piano key neckties.
If you'll excuse me, I may actually have to go build "Girls Wear Derelicte" now.........
Fun topic, thx for taking the time.
ReplyDeleteI guess the first place to start is the fourth resource. The ash heap has been a resource for a long time. The Sargon Fregment, various NEC cards, Anthelios* have all been used in the past. *Anthelios is likely considered by many to be just as much of a proble.
Ashur's makes use of this fourth resource via a MPA, which in our current metagame is much more predictable compared to that of a minion action. That predictability is what makes it so powerful. But is it predictable? If it is truely a domant piece of the puzzle then many players would fight over the resource. While racing Ashur's does occur, it doesn't seem to be terribly common, leading me to believe it is not dominant.
That brings me to my next issue, what types of deck play Ashur's? Well focused ousting machines rarely waste MPAs reloading tricks from their ash heap, it is typically the defensive/toolbox type decks that seek this kind of mid/late game selectivity. That seems like a point for diversity, which one may or may not be in favor of, but I will consider it a positive.
On to individual points:
"So far, we've got to free access to a resource not every player has.
But since we haven't proven that resource is valuable, it is best to continue."
Every player has access to this resource, they merely chose to not utilize it, much the same way they did not include govern/conditioning. Maybe MPAs as a whole would be a better analogy. Not all decks can use every MPA, or extra MPAs.
"Perfect knowledge (and solid inferences) in a game of imperfect knowledge....
that seems like a strategic advantage in the hands of any capable player."
Unless you shuffle precisely one card into an empty library the imferfect knowledge still exists. When I shuffle 13 cards into my 50 card library I have not changed my knowledge at all. I know the %weight of all the cards in my deck in both cases. What I have been allowed to do is rebuild my deck based on a limited card pool (Library +12). Of course this is a big benefit, but I paid 3 MPAs for it, and might have had to race to get there.
Matt,
DeleteTHanks for reading.
On your first point. You'll notice my leading sentence is clear to say "by default." I recognize that access has been available for a long time. Just as with Sargon, etc, reaching int creates an EXTRA resource, and yes, I agree that an MPA is the most reliable way of accessing it (not to mention the highest yielding at 13:3).
As to what plays Ashurs, check the TWDA.....lots of wins with 9 tablet decks. Hell, I win with 4 in a Tupdog deck, which isn't exactly defensive. That toolbox supposition doesn't feel right.
Perfect knowledge.... I believe I said perfect knowledge of playspace and discards plus inferences. You have knowledge of what other minions are in play and what is missing from your library, NOT that you know what the next card was.
If I know there is no S:CE and no need to press, I don't recur Grapples. The resulting mini-deck is therefore better than when it had Grapples. I used my in game knowledge to create an advantage.
Cheers.
"This messes with the random nature of drawing from a predefined set.
ReplyDeleteIt's not really predefined anymore.
We're stacking the odds in our favor as the library empties."
All we did was change the set and therefore the ratios. We do this knowing our matchups, certainly a benefit, but again, this typically comes from a less focused on ousting type of deck. This reminds me of table movers. No one really likely sitting next to weenie potence, so my plan was to always move. Can't do that anymore, but now I can recur some fortitude and at least make a game of it. This type of recursion allows players to plan for many different matchups and then tune for their table. Some people may enjoy sitting down knowing they we going to get a automatic VP, or that they were out in 6 turns. I do not, this mechanic creates many opportunities for players to outplay their poor matchups.
"The minimizes the effect of unfavorable permutations drawn early in a game.
It creates a new set of a more favorable options for subsequent draws.
This seems like a double whammy on the whole randomness aspect of the game."
Random deck is still random, it just has a different card density. Much like someone plays Lost in Crowds at inferior to change the density of stealth in their hand. Yes, if played correctly it creates a beneficial effect, but a cost was paid. Not a lot of players would play a MPA that read 'Gain Zero Pool'.
Gonna grab Darby's text here:
"As an analogy, imagine playing poker and being able to draw your cards from a face-up muck. Immediately, you transform the probability of "hitting your draw" into a simple function of your ability to reach into the muck for what you need."
Certainly for the place into your hand pice this is true, but for the remainder it is like being able to look at the muck and then take a random card for either stack. You can move the % but there is still uncertainty.
"As the ease of recursion increases, the mechanic becomes increasingly broken."
Broken is a high bar. The effect of moving cards from one zone to another in neither good nor bad unless it results in an advantage. This is actually exceptionally hard to prove in this case as Ashur's are just Acendence with a kicker. What if Ashur's put 'broken' cards back in the deck? Well probably want to address those cards. The act of changing your deck would need to be considered broken in order for Ashur's to rise to that level. Waste management doesn't see much play. Gear-up 'only' costs a blood, not an action.
Back to the beginning from Darby:
The three basic resources he points to: pool, minions, cards are certainly primary resources but don't paint the whole picture. There are many other resources at play that are all critical to winning games.
Time, card velocity, blood reclamation, actions per turn, and access to the ash heap all compete to be this next level resource. This boils down to matchups and deck funtionality, but the ash heap is no more or less special than the other named and un-named.
In summary, 'broken' is a really high bar. I do not think it rises to the level of being bleed for 6 with one minion, or being parity shifted for 5. Rebuilding your deck midgame is certainly powerful, but when compared to the other things going on, eh whatever.
Matt Guinn
Yo again,
DeleteOn predefined. Changing the set pretty much means its not the same one that you sat down with, right? Clear enough, I hope - I didn't want to confuse people.....
Best for less focused, sorry? Even stealth bleed can tailor the deck ratios for optimal performance against their current prey. No intercept or No Secrets, which is there? I alsoready offered up that I run these in my Tupdog deck in the TWDA. I can't think of a single deck though wouldn't perform better if it were given the only chance to conduct one (or three) mid game recursion(s).
Random is still random yes, you may get ANOTHER shit draw. But you had a chance to recover from the first bad permutation and try again - that's more than most people get. It's not the primary effect of Ashurs - in fact I've never even heard it outside this blog. But it's there, a hidden (minor) advantage.
On the poker thing.......I never said it was auto win......but you can improve your odds a lot having both knowledge and a great base of choices. And earlier in the post, I said if Ashurs were random, it would be fine.
Broken. Hey, if you don't believe it, fine. Broken is a high bar, and at least I got you thinking about it. You don't agree, good - hopefully to got something out of the read anyway.
But I play enough Dominion to see how recursion and on-the-fly deck optimization are pretty tweaked. When I applied that to some V:tES recursion decks, it is pretty durned good.
Sorry, but I don't buy into your resource point.
Time is a constraint in my mind - I never buy anything with it.
Card flow is not a resource, its a deck performance trait and the library is the resource it touches.
Blood reclaimed IS pool (see Part 1 of the Pool Management series) via the Library - they are the resources.
Actions per turn are not resources - they're a function of crypt/minions and library, both of which I included as primary resources.
I believe you're over-thinking that part. Even if you don't get anything else from this post, re-think that message.......Pool, crypt/minions and library are the resources and they interact during the game. Everything is derived from those 3 things.
Cheers,
Darby
The less focused comment was more to the point that toolbox decks have a really hard time exixting in a diverse meta. The ability to rebuild on some level really helps those decks exsist at all. It's certainly a fine tuning mechanic for more focued decks, but they could gain similar advantage flowing more cards without the need to hit the ash heap. Some argument for self decking certainly exists.
DeleteEverything is derived from those 3 things, including access to the ash heap. Those three are fine, I was just point out access to a new resource is not special. Card velocity, ie the ability to flow cards, is certainly a resource, else no one would ever steal fragment.
While I agree with your characterization of primary resources, one can define this game based on minion actions. It misses a lot, but it is helpful to think of things in those terms. I don't want to turn this into a discussion of semantics, but I think any measurable quantity of value is a resource.